[DrTemp]

On this site:

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/

The guardian has found some interesting things in there:
http://www.guardian....an-the-war-logs

For example:

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The war logs also detail:

• How a secret "black" unit of special forces hunts down Taliban leaders for "kill or capture" without trial.
  
• How the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles.
  
• How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.
  
• How the Taliban have caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of their roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

Please comment.

[Mazeter]

It will be interesting to see if this will change anything.

[Qoltar]

Mazeter, on 28 July 2010 - 10:10 PM, said:

It will be interesting to see if this will change anything.

Nah, Dr. Temp will still have a one track mind on this topic or avoid simple answers when he doesn't like them.


- Ed C.

[Verjigorm]

The parties involved in this need to be prosecuted as thoroughly possible. These documents endanger the lives of too many people.

[DrTemp]

Verjigorm, on 29 July 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

The parties involved in this need to be prosecuted as thoroughly possible. These documents endanger the lives of too many people.

The documents do that? How?

[Verjigorm]

DrTemp, on 29 July 2010 - 12:55 PM, said:

Verjigorm, on 29 July 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

The parties involved in this need to be prosecuted as thoroughly possible. These documents endanger the lives of too many people.

The documents do that? How?

There's a treasure trove of useful information in these documents. Information that could used to target friendlies in the area. They can expose informants, reveal troop movements, behvaiors and a variety of information that can be used to enhance operations against the US troops in Afghanistan. These documents were secret for a reason.

[DrTemp]

Verjigorm, on 29 July 2010 - 08:49 PM, said:

[...]
There's a treasure trove of useful information in these documents. Information that could used to target friendlies in the area. They can expose informants, reveal troop movements, behvaiors and a variety of information that can be used to enhance operations against the US troops in Afghanistan.

Ah, so you were talking about the enemy killing people with the help of the information found in those documents, I see. Well, that is possible.

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These documents were secret for a reason.

Uhm, yeah, especially those about the US death squadrons. If I was a US citizen, I'd want to know that someone is actually, even by your own and the Afghan puppet government's laws, ordering outright murder in my name.

But I guess you guys are just very different.

[Pariah]

Haven't read it yet. But, with this thread and the other Afgahan thread maybe I'll get the FA to change the forums name to Afghanistan forum. :D

[Verjigorm]

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Uhm, yeah, especially those about the US death squadrons. If I was a US citizen, I'd want to know that someone is actually, even by your own and the Afghan puppet government's laws, ordering outright murder in my name.

But I guess you guys are just very different.

Wait, these "death squads" were doing exactly the thing you proposed is the right way to do! They were trying to conduct warfare on a smaller scale by decapitating Taliban leadership. But, of course, you're full of shit and you vacillate with the wind.

Hey, you know what? When my country has 13 million documented murders of non-combatants, processed over a matter of years and knowingly used as slave labor then murdered. THEN you can climb up on your hobby horse and start condemning my brothers as mass murdering genocidal fascist thugs. Until then, shut the fuck up with your "moral imperitive" bullshit.

[DrTemp]

Verjigorm, on 30 July 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

[...]
Wait, these "death squads" were doing exactly the thing you proposed is the right way to do!

Whatever you smoke, don't take any more of it. I was saying in the other thread that instead of doing outright full-scale warfare, there would have been less escalating measures, such as kidnapping (not killing) a suspect from a country that does not cooperate - and I was pointing out that your government has done such things already, many times.

But what is documented in the "war diaries" is outright murder. In a country where the "official" government is on their side, so they could just send the police and put the suspect in for trial.

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Hey, you know what? When my country has 13 million documented murders of non-combatants, processed over a matter of years and knowingly used as slave labor then murdered. THEN you can climb up on your hobby horse and start condemning my brothers as mass murdering genocidal fascist thugs. Until then, shut the fuck up with your "moral imperitive" bullshit.

You are referring to Nazi crimes in the 20th century, and not to that mysterious drop of Native American population numbers in the 19th century, right?

Well, I can tell you, if I'd been around then, that would not have happened, because either it would have stooped, or I would not have been around any longer. Probably the latter, but still.

But I am glad you see the direction your country seems to take. Now, please stop it, before it is too late.

This post has been edited by DrTemp: 30 July 2010 - 01:26 PM

[Verjigorm]

DrTemp, on 30 July 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

Whatever you smoke, don't take any more of it. I was saying in the other thread that instead of doing outright full-scale warfare, there would have been less escalating measures, such as kidnapping (not killing) a suspect from a country that does not cooperate - and I was pointing out that your government has done such things already, many times.

Kidnapping is as good as killing when it comes down to the response it provokes. Either wil lbe see nas an act of hostility and aggression and escalate into full-fledged fighting, which is exactly what happens.

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But what is documented in the "war diaries" is outright murder. In a country where the "official" government is on their side, so they could just send the police and put the suspect in for trial.

Oh cut this shit out. The "official" government has limited authority at best, and is fully incapable of sending in the police and putting the suspect in for a trial. We both know that shit will not work, and we both know why. What the so called "murder squadron" is doing is attempting to annihilate the leaders of an armed organization that is hostile to the US. That they generate so few kills in comparison to regular operations is amazing, and is possible by their secrecy and stealth.

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You are referring to Nazi crimes in the 20th century, and not to that mysterious drop of Native American population numbers in the 19th century, right?

Oh, I figured I didn't want to delve too deeply back in the history of a country and culture who has done their more than ample share of warmongering, as well as had a thing for murdering Jews for the last thousand years or more.

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Well, I can tell you, if I'd been around then, that would not have happened, because either it would have stooped, or I would not have been around any longer. Probably the latter, but still.

How exactly would you stop it?

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But I am glad you see the direction your country seems to take. Now, please stop it, before it is too late.

Fortunately, in this case, My country isn't behaving in a manner completely out of line with the rest of the World. Even the French are finally onboard! That's amazing!

[Qoltar]

...again, Dr. Temp, just say you hate America and be done with it.

Thats what the averaging out of all your comments are equal to.

Or is it Capitalism?

Democracy?

Western Countries in general?

- Ed C.

This post has been edited by Qoltar: 30 July 2010 - 04:18 PM

[Mazeter]

Pariah, on 30 July 2010 - 03:17 PM, said:

Haven't read it yet. But, with this thread and the other Afgahan thread maybe I'll get the FA to change the forums name to Afghanistan forum. :D

Haha, it seems like this thread is picking up pace as well.

[DrTemp]

Verjigorm, on 30 July 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

[...] Kidnapping is as good as killing when it comes down to the response it provokes. Either wil lbe see nas an act of hostility and aggression and escalate into full-fledged fighting, which is exactly what happens.

I was talking about ethics, not consequences. That seems to be a complicated concept for you.

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But what is documented in the "war diaries" is outright murder. In a country where the "official" government is on their side, so they could just send the police and put the suspect in for trial.

Oh cut this shit out. The "official" government has limited authority at best, and is fully incapable of sending in the police and putting the suspect in for a trial.

Then go and ask yourself why that might be the case. Maybe they are just not accepted within the population.

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We both know that shit will not work, and we both know why. What the so called "murder squadron" is doing is attempting to annihilate the leaders of an armed organization that is hostile to the US.

It is attempting to murder people who are, by Afghan laws, criminals. Do you murder criminals in the US? (Well, technically you do, but usually, at least you wait until after the trial.)

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That they generate so few kills in comparison to regular operations is amazing, and is possible by their secrecy and stealth.

Please tell me, why generate kills at all?

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You are referring to Nazi crimes in the 20th century, and not to that mysterious drop of Native American population numbers in the 19th century, right?

Oh, I figured I didn't want to delve too deeply back in the history of a country and culture who has done their more than ample share of warmongering,

Yes, indeed, Germany has for most of its history a source of war and grief for many other countries (and even itself). Now, the question is, should I, as a German, defend all that shit just because it was done by Germans? No, of course not.

And neither should you try to justify shit that is done by Americans just because they happen to be of the same nationality as you.

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as well as had a thing for murdering Jews for the last thousand years or more.

Uh? You might want to have a look or two at history before claiming such a thing. And you might want to ask yourself why Yiddish is a German dialect.

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Well, I can tell you, if I'd been around then, that would not have happened, because either it would have stooped, or I would not have been around any longer. Probably the latter, but still.

How exactly would you stop it?

With horrible measures which would have made me a very un-decent person. You could open a thread for that.

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But I am glad you see the direction your country seems to take. Now, please stop it, before it is too late.

Fortunately, in this case, My country isn't behaving in a manner completely out of line with the rest of the World. Even the French are finally onboard! That's amazing!

Ah, so it is all not about ethics for you, but only about having relevant people on your side.

The United States of America were founded as a much better place than that. Sic transit gloria mundi.

This post has been edited by DrTemp: 31 July 2010 - 05:34 AM

[DrTemp]

Qoltar, on 30 July 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

...again, Dr. Temp, just say you hate America and be done with it.

Qoltar, what is that "America" that you claim I hate? Do you think I hate you, Qoltar, or Verjigorm, because I criticize the government of the country you live in?

I criticize the German governments of the past 20 years or so a lot, and the amount of criticism they deserve increases every year. Would you believe because of that that I hate Germany, or Germans? To think that would be... not the brightest option.

This post has been edited by DrTemp: 31 July 2010 - 05:41 AM

[Verjigorm]

DrTemp, on 31 July 2010 - 05:34 AM, said:

I was talking about ethics, not consequences. That seems to be a complicated concept for you.

Ethics is a complicated subject, one which has no easy answers. Only someone with the morality of a wooden spoon would advocate that Kidnapping is more ethical than murder. You rail against that exact sort of behavior, and then say it's acceptable? Fucking buy a clue.

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Then go and ask yourself why that might be the case. Maybe they are just not accepted within the population.

No shit? Ya think?

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It is attempting to murder people who are, by Afghan laws, criminals. Do you murder criminals in the US? (Well, technically you do, but usually, at least you wait until after the trial.)

These guys arn't purse-snatchers or drug dealers. They're fucking enemy operatives.

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Please tell me, why generate kills at all?

In a perfect world of fairies and butterflies, you'd be right. In the real world, these men want to kill american soldiers, and afghan civilians. I say kill'em before they get the chance.

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Uh? You might want to have a look or two at history before claiming such a thing. And you might want to ask yourself why Yiddish is a German dialect.

Yeah? You might want to check out the History books yourself. Whether or not Yiddish is a german Dialect, Germans have been murdering Jews and inciting to murder jews for the better part of a thousand years.

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With horrible measures which would have made me a very un-decent person. You could open a thread for that.

Where ar your precious ethics at now, bitch?

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Ah, so it is all not about ethics for you, but only about having relevant people on your side.

The United States of America were founded as a much better place than that. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Go stick your "ethics" that would allow tyranny to sprout up unopposed up your ass.

[DrTemp]

Verjigorm, on 31 July 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

DrTemp, on 31 July 2010 - 05:34 AM, said:

I was talking about ethics, not consequences. That seems to be a complicated concept for you.

Ethics is a complicated subject, one which has no easy answers. Only someone with the morality of a wooden spoon would advocate that Kidnapping is more ethical than murder. You rail against that exact sort of behavior, and then say it's acceptable? Fucking buy a clue.

Uhm, actually, you know... it is common consensus in most countries on this planet that kidnapping is, in fact, less unethical than murder. Look at the penalties for those two crimes in most countries.

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Then go and ask yourself why that might be the case. Maybe they are just not accepted within the population.

No shit? Ya think?

So you are aware of that? Do you have a hypothesis why that could be the case?

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It is attempting to murder people who are, by Afghan laws, criminals. Do you murder criminals in the US? (Well, technically you do, but usually, at least you wait until after the trial.)

These guys arn't purse-snatchers or drug dealers. They're fucking enemy operatives.

Or so someone believes. What if the person in question is innocent? You certainly don't believe that the information on their role in the Taliban organization is always 100% correct and reliable?

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Please tell me, why generate kills at all?

[...] these men want to kill american soldiers, and afghan civilians. I say kill'em before they get the chance.

Uhm, who exactly? And how do you know that they want to "kill American soldiers"? Maybe it's just their neighbor that does not like them and called a friend he has at the Afghan police, and that's how they became suspects. It is actually very likely that there will be false positives on that list. But in a country where 30 years of war are behind you and the US are known for bombing marriages, they could still be armed and try to defend themselves.

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Uh? You might want to have a look or two at history before claiming such a thing. And you might want to ask yourself why Yiddish is a German dialect.

Yeah? You might want to check out the History books yourself. Whether or not Yiddish is a german Dialect, Germans have been murdering Jews and inciting to murder jews for the better part of a thousand years.

Interesting. Could you you point me to a source that claims that Jews were living more dangerous in the Holy Roman Empire and its successor states before 1933 than in other Christian countries in Europe? Because, as far as I know, while there were pogromes in Europe from time to time (which is sad), the Holy Roman Emperors protected the Jews in the Empire.

Of course, this is a total tangent to the Afghan war diaries.

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With horrible measures which would have made me a very un-decent person. You could open a thread for that.

Where ar your precious ethics at now, bitch?

That concept is called "The lesser if two evils". Murdering a tyrant is very likely the only option against such people, and while still murder, it is excusable in such cases.

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Ah, so it is all not about ethics for you, but only about having relevant people on your side.

The United States of America were founded as a much better place than that. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Go stick your "ethics" that would allow tyranny to sprout up unopposed up your ass.

It's the path to tyranny that you are defending, Verjigorm.

This post has been edited by DrTemp: 31 July 2010 - 05:03 PM

[Verjigorm]

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Uhm, actually, you know... it is common consensus in most countries on this planet that kidnapping is, in fact, less unethical than murder. Look at the penalties for those two crimes in most countries.

They're both sitll felonies, and in both cases, self defense is warranted. Yes Murder may be slightly less ethical than murder, I suppose, but it's still a crime, and from a practical standpoint it's simpler to implement than kidnaping.

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So you are aware of that? Do you have a hypothesis why that could be the case?

Because Afghanistan is full of local warlords on both sides of the fence, warlords who don't give a fuck about anything but their own power. Many have been co-opted into the government and it's a terrible solution.

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Or so someone believes. What if the person in question is innocent? You certainly don't believe that the information on their role in the Taliban organization is always 100% correct and reliable?

Sure, the information is often flawed. That's a problem. However, I do believe that the decisions to be made are best in the hands of the people who are on the scene, rather than decided by a civilian in Germany who has no inkling of who is actually a taliban operative and who is a goatherder. Because, you know, these are professionals doing their jobs.

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Uhm, who exactly? And how do you know that they want to "kill American soldiers"? Maybe it's just their neighbor that does not like them and called a friend he has at the Afghan police, and that's how they became suspects. It is actually very likely that there will be false positives on that list. But in a country where 30 years of war are behind you and the US are known for bombing marriages, they could still be armed and try to defend themselves.

Just because the police are prone to abuse black men, does not mean that it's a smart idea for black men to shoot at the police in "self-defense". I don't buy your schlock for a second: Navy SEALS are not sent to murder someone off of a "hunch" or anonymous tip that someone called in. I highly doubt the ANP have very good communications with the US forces in any case, so I doubt such information is readily shared. Again, I'm willing to let the professionals do their thing, without trying to judge their actions while sitting safe at home.

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Interesting. Could you you point me to a source that claims that Jews were living more dangerous in the Holy Roman Empire and its successor states before 1933 than in other Christian countries in Europe? Because, as far as I know, while there were pogromes in Europe from time to time (which is sad), the Holy Roman Emperors protected the Jews in the Empire.

What about the Gesta Francorum? Or the writings of Martin Luther? Oooh, or what about in the 14th century when Germany was all afire with Jew-killing? The holy Roman Emperor may have protected Jews in his power, but we're all very well aware that from Henry IV to Frederick I that the authority of the Empire was often opposed by the Princes. In particular, many jews fled i nthe 14th century to neighboring Poland, which was much more tolerant and even Jew friendly.

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That concept is called "The lesser if two evils". Murdering a tyrant is very likely the only option against such people, and while still murder, it is excusable in such cases.

So where is the line then?

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It's the path to tyranny that you are defending, Verjigorm.

Doubtful, but if this be Tyranny, then let us make the most of it.

[DrTemp]

Verjigorm, on 01 August 2010 - 08:08 PM, said:

Because Afghanistan is full of local warlords on both sides of the fence, warlords who don't give a fuck about anything but their own power. Many have been co-opted into the government and it's a terrible solution.

I fully agree on that. And I would like to add, it's a terrible solution that quite obviously does not work. While before, they had a terrible solution that at least worked.

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Sure, the information is often flawed. That's a problem. However, I do believe that the decisions to be made are best in the hands of the people who are on the scene

I do believe that originally, the US were a democracy which had established the rule of law, not the rule of "people who are on the scene". But with this new method, you can safe a lot of money for prisons, why not introduce it in your own country, too, instead of only imposing it on others?

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Just because the police are prone to abuse black men, does not mean that it's a smart idea for black men to shoot at the police in "self-defense".

Uhm, wait. Are you saying they have no right not to be smart?

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I don't buy your schlock for a second: Navy SEALS are not sent to murder someone off of a "hunch" or anonymous tip that someone called in. I highly doubt the ANP have very good communications with the US forces in any case, so I doubt such information is readily shared. Again, I'm willing to let the professionals do their thing, without trying to judge their actions while sitting safe at home.

Readily shared information. Well, then, of course, death penalty without a trial is completely okay. I mean, they share information! What could possibly go wrong?

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What about the Gesta Francorum?

You might want to look that up if you claim it was "German-only".

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Or the writings of Martin Luther?

Writings in themselves rarely kill people.

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Oooh, or what about in the 14th century when Germany was all afire with Jew-killing? The holy Roman Emperor may have protected Jews in his power, but we're all very well aware that from Henry IV to Frederick I that the authority of the Empire was often opposed by the Princes. In particular, many jews fled i nthe 14th century to neighboring Poland, which was much more tolerant and even Jew friendly.

Jews had to flee from each and every European country every few generations, to other countries which were, at the time, Jew-friendly. There is nothing special about Germany in that. Christianity has never been a very tolerant religion, nowhere.

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That concept is called "The lesser if two evils". Murdering a tyrant is very likely the only option against such people, and while still murder, it is excusable in such cases.

So where is the line then?

You have to look for the balances of the number of deaths, I would say. Murdering key party figures and a coup d'etat in Germany in 1938 would have cost much less lives than the Great War had, which was about what everybody had to epxect the Nazis to start. (That it became even worse was probably not foreseeable at that time, and does not matter here anyway, because looking back to WW1 suffices to draw the right conclusion.)

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[...]
Doubtful, but if this be Tyranny, then let us make the most of it.

Uhm. You don't call death penalty without a trial "tyranny"? Then there is no tyranny.

[Verjigorm]

DrTemp, on 02 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

I fully agree on that. And I would like to add, it's a terrible solution that quite obviously does not work. While before, they had a terrible solution that at least worked.

Yeah, well, Al-Qeada had the drop on us. Their operations were very well planed, and the took out our greatest asset in the region two days before the crashed plans into the towers. And the fuckin' government keeps supporting the Warlords because...because they're fucking Morons? I don't know. Though I'd say that our tactical situation is extremely precarious now and if we alienate Dostum again, we're in for a bad time. So I'm not sure how to resolve that one, and your option is, frankly, not usable.

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I do believe that originally, the US were a democracy which had established the rule of law, not the rule of "people who are on the scene". But with this new method, you can safe a lot of money for prisons, why not introduce it in your own country, too, instead of only imposing it on others?

Dude, whatever. Keep looking for Nazis in the shadows of everything the US does. In this case, we're talking about military operatives making decisions in a military theater. The same laws that apply to civilian operations and the Justice Department don't apply in a military situation. But I already know you don't believe that to be true. Perhaps every company could be augmented with a platoon of lawyers, judges and cops to set up...wait, nah.

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Uhm, wait. Are you saying they have no right not to be smart?

What? Try not to use double-negatives, it makes your statements nonsensical and hampers communication. I'm saying that we know the police beat black people and often unfairly prosecute them, but that does not make shooting at the cops or otherwise resisting arrest a game-winning proposition. When you are opposed with overwhelming force, compliance is typically the smart answer.

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Readily shared information. Well, then, of course, death penalty without a trial is completely okay. I mean, they share information! What could possibly go wrong?

I was making the point that the ANP does not share information with the occupation forces, and in addition, are thoroughly corrupt and likely to commit worse actions than US Navy SEALS. When one cannot be sure of an asset, one doesn't use it for delicate, important duties. Especially not apprehending and imprisoning a Taliban field commander.

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You might want to look that up if you claim it was "German-only".

You might want to read it. German Barons("Graf" I believe, right?) were the ones the Gesta describes as murdering Jews all over the Empire. And Henry IV was a reasonably powerful and secure Emperor, so what about his protection?

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Writings in themselves rarely kill people.

Right, but inciting to violence is ok?

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Jews had to flee from each and every European country every few generations, to other countries which were, at the time, Jew-friendly. There is nothing special about Germany in that. Christianity has never been a very tolerant religion, nowhere.

If you look for it, Jews in Germany were more readily prosecuted than outside of Germany. Germany, much like England, had a decidedly anti-semetic flavor through-out the last 1000 years.

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You have to look for the balances of the number of deaths, I would say. Murdering key party figures and a coup d'etat in Germany in 1938 would have cost much less lives than the Great War had, which was about what everybody had to epxect the Nazis to start. (That it became even worse was probably not foreseeable at that time, and does not matter here anyway, because looking back to WW1 suffices to draw the right conclusion.)

Well, people *did* try to murder key party members. Had there been military intervention to depose Hitler, that could have helped as well. But, Chamberlain gave us peace in our time, so everything worked out.

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Uhm. You don't call death penalty without a trial "tyranny"? Then there is no tyranny.

It's all relative. Surely a smart moral relativist such as yourself, who doesn't believe in divinely inspired morality, would understand that. There are shades of gray.

As Sgt. Espera once said: "If we did any of this shit back home, we'd go to prison. But here, we're heroes...". War is a terrible, terrible condition, and something we should avoid. You make the case that Al-Qeada and their Taliban supporters were no threat to the stability and peace of the world. I would say that an orginization devoted to the destruction of Israel and the overthrow of the Egyptian and Saudi governments would cause mass problems in the world. I would continue to say that combating those men where they seek refuge is smarter than allowing them to eventually get one of their ambitious plots to succeed. You, obviously won't agree with this, because you love peace, so much that you'd rather have peace than prevent a more fearsome and destructive period of war.